Originally Posted by Karen 11th December 2006


Sweeney Todd is a very gruesome and bloody story that not only has false imprisonment and abduction, it also includes murder and cannibalism. eeeeeeek

What is it about this story that continues to make it a success and well attended musical drama?

ReadinDeppth


I think one of the more interesting aspects is that the story has a touch of myth, rumor or mere possibility that it might be true. With all of the factors that you mentioned, added to that myth, it fascinates people to wonder how someone could do such evil things.

Of course, any day-time drama seems to have those factors as well....LOL.

MacktheKnife


Um.... it is not true. Mr Todd never existed. There are all sorts of ways and means of finding out and the easiest is to email or phone the Guildhall Library in the City of London*. They have all sorts of records of The City and will tell you categorically that he did not exist.

I think that there are lots of reasons why the story is a success. My theory is that it could so easily have happened and that there is a modern obsession with serial killers and murder in general. One of the hardest things any murdered has to face is how to dispose of the body and Mr Todd hit on a way that goes against all views of decency. Interestingly whilst there are many hundreds of murder cases in English Law, there is only one of cannibalism.


*There are two cities in London, the City of London and the City of Westminster. Fleet Street is in the City of London.

ReadinDeppth


I've also read that the story of Sweeney was possibly a composite of several events/persons that have a thread that was included in the character of Sweeney (sort of like the legend of Zorro or even Santa Claus). I lived in London for 3 years and knew it quite well. One of my favorite cities.

I do admit that I'd not read nor listened to the play of Sweeney Todd before 2 months ago. Ah, another door opened for me by JDR.

Karen


While I am no expert, all of the research and reading that I have done sure points to your suggestion of the character being based on several people, a composite, as you stated. But none the less, a grizzly composite...eeek

Herestoyou


I have to agree that Sweeney is a composite as well. Truth is stranger than fiction isn't it?

As for the appeal of this show, I think it's because the subject matter is not what you would expect to see in a musical, so it hits you the first time you see it. Before I saw ST, my idea of a musical was Oklahoma, My Fair Lady, South Pacific, etc. I went into Sweeney without knowing anything about it other than it was a musical. I ended up loving it because of the dark subject matter that yet had me laughing in parts. If this was played straight without music, I don't know if I could watch it.

Along these lines, I attended a performance this last summer of a musical called "Bat Boy". Again,I went to this not knowing what it was about;I actually thought it might have something to do with Batman and Robin LOL!

Anyway, it's definitely along the line of ST, if you check out this link, it tells you a little about it. I found myself humming and singing one of the songs from the performance on the way home and it's really quite a dark musical.

I have to say, I began thinking of ST after I saw this one, too. Anyone else know of musicals that deal with these subjects?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Boy:_The_Musical

I know widipedia isn't the best site, but they actually have a decent write up on this.............

Nurseanne8


I have no knowledge of theatre except for the yearly high school musicals-and ones that have been made into movies-but I think ST has been around so long because the music/lyrics are good and tell an interesting story-I have heard Pretty Women, By the Sea, and Johanna before and had no idea they were connected to ST until I watched the DVD-the murders, cannabalism seem acceptable when combined with the numbers from the musical-that is all I have to say and Bat Boy appears interesting-another example of a graphic type of novel making its way into theatre or film.

Karen


Do you all think that it has remained popular because it does tell a story "in the extreme"?

Herestoyou


I think you're right Karen, it is extreme to say the least. Again, the mix of humor helps with the difficult content. I couldn't watch a movie/play like this without the humor. (Even though it's strange to think anything about cannibalism could be funny!)

Nurseanne8


Sure-and presented as a musical-it is acceptable to enjoy it while at the performance-it is like slasher movies-we like to be scared and grossed out for a bit knowing-we are able to return to our "safe" lives when we leave the theatre.

Nurseanne8


I have a question-who provides the comic relief-Mrs. Lovett? in the DVD version Angela L. had me laughing-but not ST.

Herestoyou


Definitely Mrs. Lovett, I thought Pirelli was a funny character, too. Johnny seems to be able to work in the humor with his difficult characters, do you think he will do this with Sweeney? Make him appear more sympathetic and not so deranged? Or, will he just go all out for the deranged, maniacal killer?

Karen


I've wondered about this myself. Johnny always manages to help us see the more sympathetic side of his deranged characters. Look at how sympathetic he made Mort! I really do like the idea of Tim directing him in a more maniacal way, really let the anger come out. I wonder if Sweeney is so "eaten up" by the anger that it caused him to go over the top? Johnny could find that and help us see that the man who "was" Johanna's father was long ago destroyed.

MacktheKnife

I think that is a very scary idea! If a mass murderer appears to a 'normal' human to be sympathetic does that not make them even more scary? That is, if they are sympathetic then they have a degree of humanity left - they are not just a deranged mass murderer. So that they know what they are doing...

Nurseanne8


I think that is what is exciting about the Burton-Depp production to see how the maniacal ST will be protrayed-remember Wonka-no telling how ST will appear. And the most successful "serial" killers appear "normal" to most people they came into contact with-the degree of psychotic behavior is only evident at the crime scene.

Karen


Something that is more "real" to us, frightens us the most.

Herestoyou

I think that Sweeney does have some humanity left, but his brain has obviously snapped. I'm not excusing what a mass murderer does, so when I used the term "sympathetic", I mean are we going to see the circumstances that led up to Sweeney becoming the killer he ended up being. As was stated above, most serial killers do appear "normal" in real life. So, yes, that does make them even more scarier. For me the whole theme of this musical is man's inhumanity to man: judge vs. Sweeney, prison vs. Sweeney, Sweeney vs. judge, Sweeney vs. everyone, judge vs. Sweeney's wife, judge vs. Johanna, etc, etc. Sweeney ending up a mass killer plays into this theme in the most extreme way. (And of course the ultimate man's inhumanity to man would be the cannibalism)

MacktheKnife


As I write this the news is about the murder of five women - so there is a serial killer lose about twenty miles from where I live. I hope s/he is caught soon. We have been discussing what triggers a serial killer - at the moment I am not sure I want to know! Five women have been murdered over the last few weeks.

One of the things that I find repellant about the story is the cannibalism. ST and Mrs Lovett trick others into breaking one of the most srious taboos humanity - or at least 'our' society has. They (ST and Mrs L) do not, as far as I know, eat any of Mrs Ls pies. Sometimes what is repellant can also fascinate.