This portion of the book was one of the most difficult for me to read and I have to admit to skimming through it for the second read, but this is a question and point of discussion that I think we need to have.

Lin's torture finally ends when we learn that Khaderbhai sends Vikram to "bail" him out of Arthur Road jail. We know why Khaderbhai kept him there. What did this jail experience teach Lin? How was he shaped by it? How was anyone else affected by this?

I'm loving these questions!! They're so thought provoking and different! I just wish I could give more intelligent answers, especially to this one! :blink: I also wish there was a picture of said prison, but I don't suppose it's part of any tour of Mumbai, not even a Shantaram tour...not yet anyway! LOL
I don't know what effect Lin's confinement and torture had on him, but I know what effect it had on me ~ painful!! I skipped it the second time around too. Once was enough.
If Lin needed any more reminding about his delicate psychological state, or about his vulnerablity, or about his capacity to endure trauma, this experience would just about do it me thinks. A theme of self-punishment, even self-annihilation, runs through Lin's character ~ perhaps explaining why he can't say no to anybody, even when he's pretty sure they're up to no good. He tends to side with people who will lead him toward a goal of confirming what a rotten person he is...he seems to want that on some level. Fatalistic.
But the prison episode is sooo terrible...did it turn the tide and cause Lin at last to realize he wasn't THAT bad? To realize that of all the horrible things he deserved, he didn't deserve THAT!? I don't remember Lin specifically coming to that conclusion, but I did, on his behalf!

I agree---very tough to read let alone live through! I would just guess that it tore Lin down to the very essence of himself. His thoughts through all of this were amazing to me. It showed his strength and courage obviously, and his will to survive. I would imagine that anyone that could survive what he did, could survive anything. A weaker person would not have survived in my opinion. It never ceases to amaze me "man's inhumanity to man". Sadly, we see the same things going on in the world today.

I know what you are saying. There is a fatalist side to Lin and that part of the character really bothers me. It made so many of the scenes hard to read, for me anyway. Do you think his self punishment is worse than that of the jail


Glad you are enjoying the discussion!

Yes, I think the punishment we inflict on ourselves is always worse than anything that can be thrown at us from the outside.
In recalling Lin's stream of consciousness while inside the prison, and how he gets to a place where he forgives his jailers, I realize now that maybe that was the main effect the experience had on him - it opened up his capacity to forgive his tormentors and thereby to forgive himself. (?)
If one takes a classic Hindu p.o.v. on this, it all boils down to dharma.

Yes, the time he spent in jail and what they were doing to him was very difficult to read and the way he wrote it, I could picture it very clearly in my mind.
And besides the physical torture, so many things had to be going through his mind. Why was I put here? Was I set up? Why? And where the heck are all my friends? Surely they must have heard about my arrest. Why aren't they trying to help me! He must have felt so abandoned in a country that he was starting to love.

Does that mean you expect ME to go and take a photo of said prison ? :ph43r: LOL...

I think that Lin learned to to love every aspect of India when he was in prison.
He learned to survive under any circumstances. Whereas he had just escaped jail in Australia, perhaps not learning much there.

(My apologies for my short answers...family stuff.)

I'm not sure I beleive Khader's reasoning. It was possibly also to show Lin the powerful effect of Khader's powerful.

In answering the very first question, I stated the following:

I have found myself going back to re-read some sections and also skimming some. I have found myself putting the book aside at times because I had things going on in my personal life and I knew I couldn't deal with the book at that time.

The jail part was definitely a part that I skimmed - and put aside for awhile, for that matter. It was very disturbing and painful to read - maybe I'll be able to get through the section better the next time around.

Ultimately, I think that the jail experience is a big factor in Lin's decision to go to Afganistan and ultimately learning one of the biggest lessons he learned during that part of his life - that you can't kill love.

(from page 740 in my edition (last page of chapter 34))

They'd lied to me and betrayed me, leaving jagged edges where all my trust had been, and I didn't like or respect or admire them any more, but I still loved them. I had no choice. I understood that, perfectly, standing in the white wilderness of snow. You can't kill love. You can't even kill it with hate. You can kill in-love, and loving, and even loveliness. You can kill them all, or numb them into dense, leaden regret, but you can't kill love itself. Love is the passionate search for a truth other than your own; and once you feel it, honestly and completely, love is forever. Every act of love, every moment of the heart reaching out, is a part of the universal good: it's a part of God, or what we call God, and it can never die.

Irish, that's interesting. Lin's definition of Love is quite different from Karla's (near the beginning). I wonder if Lin has any effect on Karla or not.

Karla suggests love to be like a sinking ship, where a person must bail everything important out of the boat to maintain love. P.63.

Khader, on the other hand, seems to use love to keep people in his group.

Hmmm... yes. OK. :thumbsup Nice find. There are many inferences in the book to that dharmic higher truth.

That is a beautiful passage, irish. In the same section Lin comes to realize also that love basically goes one-way; it's not about how much you get but how much you give. I think the confrontation with Khader shows Lin some very twisted kinds of love as well...Khader's love for his cause, for example, that motivated him to use his power over people, and their love for him, in the most harmful and cruel ways, and caused him to be killed by his own selfish pride in the end.
I came away from reading that section with an even stronger conviction that 'causes' are never worth fighting or dying for. I think Lin got that message as well when he stated that soldiers die with words of love on their lips (for family, home, the earth) and the purpose for fighting, the 'cause', is long forgotten. It's a timely message...

Parlez, so do you think Lin is finished with Khader's style of love? Will he move onto the next, being Karla's style? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what you mean here, Depputante, but I believe Lin finds his own way of expressing love in the end - not Khader's or Karla's style, but his own. I don't think Lin was ever as damaged as his two mentors (Khader and Karla) were. So in that regard, in matters of love and loving, he surpassed them both.

I'm not sure what I think about the questions asked, but on topic of Arthur Road Jail, I came across the story of Sanjay Dutt (a very big Bollywood star) who has been sentenced to 6 years there and I guess because of reading Shantaram I've reacted to the story in a much stronger way than I would have before. Here's the story if you want to read it:
http://nowrunning.com/news/news.asp?it=11409
Is it just me reacting like that? I mean the guy was in posession of arms that were used in the bombing, but he didn't actually take part. And yes, he did wrong, but still... *chills* By many accounts he's one of the nicest actors in the industry...

Wow! Thanks for the report, roz! This sounds like something right out of the book!! Mafia, weapons, Bollywood...GDR couldn't have written it better! I was glad to read Mr. Dutt wasn't going to be put in with the 'hardened criminals' at Arthur Road prison. Still, one wonders what the best case scenario might be in such a place; we already have a good description of the worst case scenario. yikes!

Also, I've gotta say, I'm finding these male Bollywood movie stars a pretty unattractive lot. The women are so beautiful, but the men...?? :huh:

Oh yeah, Bollywood and mafia really did used to go together still in the 90s. Part of the reason was that in some cases they didn't have the money to finance films in any other way. The law was very tough on the film industry.
It's not until 1998 that the film industry was even called an "industry" by the law. Uptil then they had different (tougher) taxes and very limitted financing options. For example a company can take a loan from a bank (many films in Europe are partly financed that way), but until 1998 because cinema in India wasn't considered an industry by law, that sort of financing was unavailable to them. There were all sorts of financing problems like that, so I think largely that made them turn to the mafia.
Now I think the links aren't as strong (although there's probably still a number of films that get financed that way).

Certainly, most of the major stars of the industry get all sorts of threats from the mafia. A famous producer and director, Rakesh Roshan actually got shot outside of his office (fortunately he was not killed and made a full recovery) a few years ago.
And also few years ago there was a big court case which involved many of the biggest names of the industry. It was about death threats from a specific person. Those stars had reported the threats to the police but when it came to court time they went back on what they had told the police. The only person who didn't was Preity Zinta (an actress). I can totally believe she's a very tough person, but also I think she was the only of them who was totally single and I think her parents are dead as well (it's your kids, siblings, parents and so on that these people target the most or at least that's what I've gathered from the very little that stars say on the subject - as you can imagine it is rather taboo!).
Sanjay Dutt - the guy from the article had apparently also received loads of threats (we'll rape your sister, kill your mother etc.). I think that in some versions of the story it was actually the threats that made him keep the gun that was used in the bombings at his house.

So yeah - that part of Shantaram is absolutely true from what I can make out!

lol Well once you see most of them "in action" I think they are quite attractive (though of course it depends on individual tastes ;) ). The attractiveness is just not in the looks ;) I mean there are some "pretty boys" in Bollywood, but they just don't make the A list.
There is I think only one big star who is "conventionally good-looking" - the son of Rakesh Roshan (the producer who was shot), Hrithik Roshan. He made his debut in 2000 and ever since then people have said he'll throw Shahrukh off his no. 1 spot, but 7 years later it still hasn't happened :D He has better looks than any of the other top guys, a better body and is probably the best dancer in the industry as well. Check him out if you like:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=53E11ENV0y8

But actually, I think that if you looked at the top Hollywood actors then few of them are conventionally good-looking (though again all the women would be gorgeous). I mean the only A-list actor I can think of that really is good-looking is Tom Cruise. Other than him, I guess if you consider Orlando A-list (although I don't think he guarantees box office the way some others do yet) then we could add him to the list of conventionally good-looking Hollywood actors. But generally just like their Bollywood counterparts, it's not looks that make them sexy IMO. I mean, personally, I don't think Johnny is particularly good-looking - at least not in a conventional way, but he's still very attractive.
One of the most bizzarre cases of on-screen sexiness IMO is Alan Rickman who is over 60 and yet loads of people still find him extremely sexy. And of course it's not in his looks. It's more to do with his acting, image etc. (well and possibly his voice :P )

Whoa! Have MERCY! Kind of like an Indian Inrique Iglacias ! He can 'do my challey' any time ! ;)
Can't he be an Abdullah ? PLEASE!!!! :thud His name ought to be Hartack Roshan. Like heart attack! :D

I think I'll go watch that video again... :snoopy You've made me the next new Bollywood fan.

Phew! It did get a little hot in here after watching that clip! :thud
I'm going to have to keep a weather eye out for Hrithik!
:thanks for the all the info and clip roz!

Great point rozoweskarpetki...Rickman's voice even made Snape hot. LOL

Oh wheeee lol I'm very glad to hear it :D

I guess I'm not the best person to be telling you about Hrithik as I know hardly anything about him. Unfortunately in Poland the only film of his that was shown was "Kabhi Khushie Kabhie Gham" (which also stars Mr Bachchan and Shahrukh). I'm patiently waiting though :D
He had a big hit last year with "Krrish" which was the first ever Indian superhero film. You can see the teaser trailer here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-124745800986058644
It actually got very good reviews in the US. Apparently Reader's Digest even wrote something along the lines of forget superman, here comes krrish lol

And here's a funny clip of Hrithik and Shahrukh at the 2007 Filmfare Awards (the Indian equivalent of the Academy Awards). Hrithik won Best Actor for Krrish.
Shahrukh was hosting and this is a section when Shahrukh is interviewing Hrithik about Krrish and they're joking around about their "rivalry":
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cipPdHeDcvM

Thanks to everyone that you keep encouraging me - especially at the moment Bollywood is something I can go on and on about with great pleasure, I'm really happy that there are people other than me who are enjoying all of this :D

Karen, I have a confession to make - I find Snape sexy even in the books *blush*